Obama 'closing argument': national unity

Mons:  Why did you just make up those lies? 

The exact stories were floating through the Internet last week as "stories".  Now they've happened to you personally.  Yea, right.  And YOU tip $10 for a one person meal???  Why don't you tell us know that it was a $80 tap at the Ritz Carlton.

Do you know why the GOP party is in the shape that it's in?  It's because they lie.  The GOP party has lied to their own party to draw in the ignorant and uneducated and they have lied to the American people to further their agenda. 

McCain voted against the Bush tax cuts.  He only decided to be for the tax cuts to get the wealthy vote.  The joke is that many of the wealthy conservitive Republicans have abandoned McCain because they know that the GOP is destroying the country. 

Your argument is specious.

Firstly, the server should be earning a wage commensurate with his work, and not relying on 'tips' from customers. Actually the present system redestributes your wealth whether you like it or not, by demanding that you pay his wages in the form of tips.

Secondly, charity to the poorest in our midst is a good thing, but should be supported by social services to prevent people ending up homeless and relying on charity. Poverty is not all self created.

Thirdly, you kept money from an underpaid worker to give money to a penniless man. In the fairer society, which I believe Obama is aiming to achieve, there will be more tax on the very rich, who can afford it, so that you and I, and the diner worker and the working poor can live somewhat better lives.

Maybe you should have given the owner the tip , than seen if any trickled down to the waiter who in turn could have helped  the homeless man.  Sort of like where we are right now, except nobody can afford to eat out!

Obama/Biden 2008

This already has  been on a  number  of  sites

I think that's a good point. In fact if Obama should win(which he won't) but "if", I am going to stop tipping. My tax dollars will take care of that.

Ann...why would you assume the server was underpaid? They accepted the job based on an assumable, hourly wage.  Often times these are set low for tax benefit.  Are we to just assume that the server also reports all tips as income? Are we to assume the server did an adequate job of taking care of their customer?  Are we to assume the server was making a wise choice by making a political statement at work?

We do not agree on the determination of fair either.  I would say that it is fair for a person who, attains an education, holds down a job and advances in a career to retain the lions share of what they earn.  And the person who drops out of high school, floats from job to job, on and off again government assistance or hasn't to work menial, low paying jobs to earn money should get to live on what they earn but they should also have the privelege to support the Government as well.  Not the other way around.

The thing is what Obama is calling for is inherently unfair.  American offers resident children a free K-12 education in this country.  Many areas even off this as a revolving door policy at the whim of minors and their parents.  Attaining this basic level of education, at the very least, should affort people to seek the low end of middle income.  So those not bothering to accept this opportunity should end up in the lower, poor end of the spectrum, unless they have other gifts that propell them to success. 

We should not have to elevate a segment of our society to a comfortable post if they are not willing to work toward that goal themselves.

The exception to that rule would be those who are not physically, emotionally or mentally capable of taking care themselves.  Even to that extent the family, not the larger community, should take first responsibility for their own.

That is right cdyeager.  The correct analogy for Republicans would be to tip the owner, provided he earns more than $120,000 a year, and watch it "trickle down" on the waiter.  By tipping the homeless man, Mons was better demonstrating an analogy of welfare, not part of the Obama plan, and not middle class tax relief by any stretch of the imagination. 

I have one question for all of you, the progressive tax system we now use. Socialist, Democratic(as in democracy), how do you define the current system?? We have a form of socialism in this Country and it has been eagerly supported by Both Parties. Without this program McCain would not have any government funds to campaign on. Accepting those government funds, does that make McCain a socialist. There is a question on our tax returns(those who pay our fair share)whether we want a part to pay for campaign finance which is $1. There are other programs such as vouchers for schools, education, transportation, any form of public funding provided by the government. If you think we aren't involved in socialism, look around.

Chris...where did you get the idea that welfare was not part of the Obama plan?  Free secondary education for all, free day care disguised as 0-PK early childhood education, etc.

I wish those following Obama blindly would actually put the puzzle together rather than staring at all the pieces thinking it would be a really pretty picture if someone else with assemble it for them.

You wrote this same thing last week.  Got a new cartoon on EM today You luv it !
Children Trick or Treating come to a house and are told by the owners that they
will are giving some of their candy to the kids that were too lazy to Trick or treat for
themselves. - the caption reads "Oh Crap — Democrats"

Txmom32, surely you don't believe our school system is a free system. Our county, city, state, and federal taxes pay for these systems. Road building and repair paid for by taxes on fuel. Why don't you look at all the programs funded by the county, city, state, and federal governments, you will see we have socialist programs and both parties vote for these programs. Any argument relating to socialism can include all forms of our system.

Hey JH go ahead and stop tipping, just don't mind when your food gets spit in, ha ha

Gene...I never mentioned socialism in my discussion.  The point of paying taxes is to create an environment for the common good of all.  You appear to be very simplistic in your arguments. 

Believe me I am well aware of where my taxes go, we seem to pay quite a lot.  The sad thing is that it seems to go to promote mediocrity when it comes to our Federal contributions rather than the higher standards by which our country was built.

The easiest for instance I can give on that one is Health Care.  We have a reasonable health care benefit for Federal Employees and it makes sense to do that because it is common in our society for Employers to pay for part or all of an employees health care.  It is not a broken system we should leave it alone.

  We have a mess when it comes to Medicare, Medicaid and VA Medical.  We need to deal with the inequities in these programs before entertaining tax subsidized medical for all. 

They obvious place to start would be Medicare, as the people on this program have spent the better part of their working lives paying into it they should receive a return on their investment that will yield a quality of life that was intended. 

On equal footing are VA benefits because our Veterans have sacrificed much for our freedom and deserve a system that will benefit their physical and mental health.  Keep in mind that we have voluntary enlistment we need to make good on our promises made for that enlistment. They deserve as good as they give.  We owe our military families the best medical our system can conceive.

It may seem harsh but medicaid can wait for repair.  Unless they are willing to contribute something, anything for their own care then they need to stand in line. Is that expensive, yes.

My Local and State seem to allocate, for the most part, reasnably to the common good, yes there is pandering to the special interest.  Which is why when we moved back to the country I was careful about the county and city we chose to live based on tax allocation.  We pay more to live here but survices for all are much improved for that privelege.  I am also assured that my children, in school and health care, are not second class citizens to illegal immigrant children.

Funny how Obama wants to shift the burden of funding schools from the States to the Federal Government (which at least in NY means a drop in propery taxes), and its Socailism?

The public school system should be Federally funded.  As my experiances in NY show, as the schools are funded by the individual towns, the richer the town, the better the school.  Why should I be punished because I live in a poorer neighborhood, and don't have the cash to go to a private school?  Hell, some parts of NY are now voting down the school budgets, because of the high property tax rate that pays for them.

I doubt you did this, I read this story on the web last week.  It is also an inaccurate description of how socialism works.  Even if this were a correct description it is not what Obama has been proposing he is talking eliminating the tax breaks given to the very wealthy by Bush and creating a fairer income tax system which actually benefits the vast majority of us not just the rich.  Obama's plan particularly provides greater benefits to those who work hard but get paid little.

tax cuts for workers is obama's plan. If you do not work( you do not pay taxes) you will not get any tax cuts. if you work and make less than 250,000.00 you will received tax cuts. plain and simple.

All you have to do, is listen with an objective mind, that s all.

gamerk,

great point!!! a child born in west Oakland, CA is no less deserving of a good education than a child born in Marin county, CA,nor of decent health care.

This should be one of the foundations of our political creed. That all children deserve an opportunity for a good education and decent health care. Anything less is inhumane.

Larry Wilson... We have an established education system.  If people of low economic means do not like what their school districts offer in the way of a basic education let them get involved.  Do what the more economically advantaged schools do, create a PTO to help support funding for school programs and wish lists.  It really isn't that hard. It does take a committment of time and energy.  That and an interest in your kids day to day lives.   That is exactly what makes the magnet school model successful.  It requires a committment and presence from parents.  It dosn't accept the status quo of parents yelling about what other people aren't doing for their kids.

As far as health care is concerned I agree.  I think we should start fining parents who do not provide adequate health coverage or care for the children they have.

Mons:

Can we get you a fire extinguisher? It sure must hurt to have your pants on fire like that.

Though you might be very proud of yourself, I however am not very impressed with your rudeness and limited thought process. You see what Obama and millions of voters realize is that it is not that we should support those that are not wanting to help themselves, but to encourage them and make it more readily available to do so with more opportunities of doing so, BUT what most is meant by this concept of "spreading the wealth is that it is enough wealth in our nation for everyone IF the few are not allow to horde it all for themselves!

You see what we have here is a case of the selfish against those that are more understanding of other's needs. For example I have listened to McCain/Palin, Palin especially speak against abortions, she feels that it should not be allowed even in cases of rape and incest, well that all sounds good and Godly, BUT! If we are to stop helping those in need then who will help those young women and children once these babies are born? Is she suggesting that the women give birth and just make it the best way they can? 

Your actions were a very good example of a unthoughtful Republican's desire to lord over someone who thought weaker than yourself, it was not reflective of Obama's economic plan because if it was you would have divided the money between the two that way they both could have benefited! 

TXMOM32 wrote:

Gene...I never mentioned socialism in my discussion.  The point of paying taxes is to create an environment for the common good of all. 

You're correct. You used the term "Welfare" to describe free "secondary education".

The easiest for instance I can give on that one is Health Care.  We have a reasonable health care benefit for Federal Employees and it makes sense to do that because it is common in our society for Employers to pay for part or all of an employees health care.  It is not a broken system we should leave it alone.

The system is broken. Not all employers provide medical benefits for their employees and many go out of there way not to provide it.. By the same token not everyone is fortunate enough to have access to federal employee benefits  Ask any retail employee that gets just enough hours each week (i've been one) to keep them "classified" as part time, so that they are not eligible for benefits. When there are gainfully employed individuals with no access to health care due to the lack of benefits, the system is broken.

On equal footing are VA benefits because our Veterans have sacrificed much for our freedom and deserve a system that will benefit their physical and mental health.  Keep in mind that we have voluntary enlistment we need to make good on our promises made for that enlistment. They deserve as good as they give.  We owe our military families the best medical our system can conceive.

Are you referring to the very same VA benefits against which the Republican candidate for President consistently voted, repeatedly?  (source: The Washington Independent, Veterans' Groups Question McCain's Voting record Part 2: GOP Hopeful's Record on Vet Benefits Contradicts Stump Rhetoric By John Doughtery 9/19/08 1:24 PM ).

He's voted 28 times since 1987, against improved benefits for veterans.

My Local and State seem to allocate, for the most part, reasnably to the common good, yes there is pandering to the special interest.  Which is why when we moved back to the country I was careful about the county and city we chose to live based on tax allocation.  We pay more to live here but survices for all are much improved for that privelege.  I am also assured that my children, in school and health care, are not second class citizens to illegal immigrant children.

As for education. This country was once the world leader in education. We are now, pretty much the laughing stock. However, federalizing education is not an idea that is new to the Democratic candidate or party. Remember "No Child Left Behind"? Mr. Bush's attepmt to federalize education standards which went unfunded?

AHHH, I see this is more about immigration laws or lack thereof versus "free secondary education" (which has always been available since high school is considered secondary education) and hence, your initial argument which you labelled "welfare". Now, did you mean "free Post-secondary education"? Which Mr. Obama has never championed? I believe, and please check his position on his web site, Mr. Obama is promoting a tax incentive of $4-5k/yr, for everyone that wants to attend college. Hardly enough to qualify as a "Free" education, in case you've not priced college educations lately.

Your "experiment" just goes to show the mean spirited mind set of the Repb. party and it's loyal members. You thought you were cute, if you can afford lunch out, you can afford to give both the homeless(do thank God that isn't you) and the server(again, thank God that isn't you). Then take your smug self back to your office and make millions, when you look in the mirror-be proud. That's the only face that might give you the nod for your attitude, good thing you can't see me right now, my face isn't smiling. Glad I raised mine better. 

Bernice...now a new one, abortion, not really in the line of thought for this thread so I will get that out of the way very quickly.  I am a pro-choice conservative.  I don't happen to think either candidate will do a thing to change the current laws we have in this country at this time. Nor do I think that being anti or pro abortion has anything to do with selfishness. I think it has everything to do with how people view when life begins.

To get to the discussion at hand....and the selfish Republicans.  Here is my illustration.

Friday night is Halloween.  My children will dress up and go through the neighborhood in the search for candy.  They will hit roughly the same number of houses, in the same neighborhood but inverrably one will come out with much more candy than the other two.  Can't prove it will happen this year but it has become an annual trend.  As I go through their candy for signs of being tampered with, because you just never know where the nutcases live, I will redistrubute it to be equal among all three.  (Just as a mom thing I will make sure the child who dosn't like nuts trades out with the one who does)  One might think that that is very fair.  The fact is I do not do this because it is fair.  I do this because every year, remember this is a trend, the one with less screams the loudest.  "Why did she/he get more.",  "Why don't I ever get the most." "It's not fair", "It's not right"....As a mom I choose to pass on the B*&ch fest and pacify the screamer.  After all the one who comes out with the most knows it, and should be satisfied with that as an accomplishment and should gladly share the candy with the other.  (Heres the rub though) as a general rule my kids don't get candy. So Haloween, Easter and Christmas are the big time.

This year I am going to do things differently.  Gonna place a real world spin on family life, and let them just have what they get.  If one is able to get to extra houses great for them, If another has a friend donating what they don't like to their bag that is fine too. Gonna tell the one with the least to just suck it up and do something different next year.  Gonna let those who get more keep what they collected.  If someone runs out maybe the others will share, They all have kind hearts.  I'll let you know how it works.

Maybe, I do have a simplistic view, but I believe that we have an obligation to people on the lower end of the economy. Minimum wages aren't enough for one to purchase health care, pay for a home, pay for transportation, purchase food and clothing, or any other necessities of life. You can say these people have as much opportunity as anyone else, but you know that's not true. The people who are at this very moment loosing jobs, probably some of them very good jobs. Do they need to end up like the homeless example posted earlier?? Do they need to hang a sign around their neck asking that Obama be elected President because they need the money?? How many employers pay for an employees insurance?? Who pays for the insurance of our Representatives, Senators, Government employees, and Our President ??? Taxes pay their salaries and their benefits. If we can provide for these people there is no reason that the whole population can't have the same benefits. I have worked and paid taxes (federal,state, social security) for almost 50 years and am facing the loss of any benefits from the government, due to the Congress, the President and his party wasting those resources. When your party says we need to work for what we get, then I believe I've worked for the benefits your party wants me to pay for. If Bush had gotten his way in his first term and put social security into the stock market it would be bankrupt. Some of you don't believe that we should share the wealth, meaning the benefits that are provided to our government and it's leaders. It's easy to tell citizens that they need to provide for themselves when you are living off the taxpayer. 

txmom is obviously a 'stay at home' mom with a rich husband.

1. K-12 education isn't Free -- we all pay for it and her husband pays for it out of property taxes

2.  Restaurant wages are not set low for a tax benefit.  They are set low because the owner assumes tips.  The owner assumes a wait staff will work harder and sell more with a tip structure, not a wage.

3 & 4.   The person with a college education has seen his/her wages drop over the last 7 years.  Technical jobs have been out-sourced to other countries.  Obviously, her husband has too a good job to be so 'holier than thou'.  We have worked very hard; she assumes we do not; and have seen our wages go down.

It is people like txmom who are ruining this country.  They assume anyone not making over $250,000 is dirt.  Well, madam, we have been working for you.  It is time you start working for us.

Mons,

Since you are copying and pasting someone else's post, I'll copy and paste my response to it:

Here's the problem with your analogy:  In your scenario you took money from a server and gave it to the homeless person.  I don't know what wait staff make in your town, but I don't know any that make over $250,000!!!  What you did is take money from someone who struggles to pay their bills and give their money to a homeless person.  No wonder he/she was upset.  Wait staff depend on their tips for their income as they get very little hourly pay.

Now, in the same scenario, if you took $10 from Donald Trump and gave it to the homeless person, the homeless person would be $10 richer and Donald Trump wouldn't even notice!

I think you're missing the point!

I don't like to insult anyone, but You txmom32 are extremely elitist in your views. There is an air of hate in your beliefs. I hope I can continue to care for others and keep my simplistic views, I wouldn't want to see the Country like you.

Pooronalivingwage...you say "stay at home mom" like that is an ugly thing.  It really isn't.  When we made the decision to be a traditional family we cut our income in half, in the day.  It has took several years to make up the difference.  I do the shopping, cook our meals, do our laundry, clean our house and spend a great deal of time at the kids schools.  I'm the mom that is there as a room parent and on field trips, volunteering in the library and classroom. I'm on the PTO and planning fundraisers for shade on playgrounds, books for classroom or making food for teachers on inservice days.  Working mom's don't all have the luxury of time to do these things in their community, although I know several who do make the time.  I am home when my kids come in from school.  They are not walking into an empty house or going to daycare.  They know that I can and will listen to everything they have to tell me, although I may not always like it.  They know without reservation that they are my priority.

My darling dear one is not rich, yet.  But we have a comfortable lifestyle and make allowances on many things to maintain our responsibilities.   I went to University as a full time student out of high school. My family payed for school and I paid for the life.  I worked hard and fortunately worked my way up quickly to a good job.   The home I owned, before marriage, helped to finance the one I bought with my Husband.

  My Darling Dear One, on the other hand, didn't have the luxury of help. His mother raised four children alone.  He went to work and got his education as he could over the years.  Through a 30 year career with the same company, he has earned every dime he made in his life to this day. He is a marvel and a testiment to what can come of hard work. For some reason there are people, who don't even know him, think he should subsidize their lives.  When they are willing to work his hour and his schedule and travel for weeks at a time as he does, then we'll talk.

You are right about the K-12, it isn't free for all, some of us do pay taxes.  It is however free for those with their hands out.  As a matter of fact it is mandatory so that children have an opportunity to get a decent job, to be able to read a contract and to have a basic knowledge of how the world works around them and yet many are willing to walk away from that opportunity and then complain when they get nowhere in life.

With regard to wait staff. Ponder this one: If you are a server and you average just $50 dollars a table in a two hour period and you have six tables you can figure your hourly tips at only 10% per table to be $15.00 an hour. If you work a six hour shift that is $90 a shift tip potential. over the course of a 50 week year you have made $22,500 plus the hourly rate.  As you average a shift of only six hours you are not full time.  Now if you are a career server you probably work somewhere that averages more than $50 a table and serves alcohol so you would increase that by the cost of the alcohol. 

Don't kid yourself.  Wait staff, if they are good at their job, can make a descent living working in a restaurant.  Lets do the average for a person working in a high end restaurant.  Say the table average is $200. six tables, two hour table time at 15% that is $180 for two hour or $540 for a six hour shift. Now that is only counting a 30 hour work week (not full time no benefits) but over the course of 50 weeks (because at the end of the day you can afford a vacation)  that is an earning potential of $135,000. a year. That isn't too bad.  

I would love to see your sources for the stats on University Graduates with dropping salaries over the past seven years.   Tech jobs are being sent overseas in some instances because they use phone banks with low skilled workers and in true tech positions we are being outclassed in education.  Google Bill Gates for his views of the quality of tech minds coming out of American Universities. The students coming out of school are coming out without realistic expectations.  They are expecting to start at what would be a mid-career salary out of the gate.  They want everything but by and large do not know what it takes to advance.

I don't think you are dirt if you don't make $250,00 a year.  I think you are probably worth whatever you sell your skills for.  I don't know you to make a judgement on how hard you work or what you do or don't do or how much you take home.  It really isn't my business in the same token it isn't your business what we have to live on either.  I would suppose whatever it is you do you are not happy doing it, thats a shame.  I do know that if you want something in life you need to do it for yourself and not expect others to do it for you, that just makes you a sheep. 

The thing about people like me we vote, same as you, we pay our taxes, I hope you do, we raise our kids and pay our bills, same as you do.  We hug our children and want more for them than we had.  Unfortunately, it is the people who begrudge our hard work and sacrifice and want us to subdizie their lives that makes it difficult to give the opportunities to our kids.  It really irritates me when people want to take from me what is intended for my children.

Gene: I am not insulted by being called an Elitist.  There are worse things. I don't hate anyone and I don't begrudge people their successes, the things they have worked for or wish to take away what they have earned.  I admire people who work hard and quite frankly believe that if some does the very best they can at their jobs they can succeed to greater success. If you have a job you don't enjoy find something you do and be content.

You don't begrudge people their successes, but you don't think there are people in need, if they are you assume they weren't working hard enough. You say their families should be their first provider,families I know do help . You haven't presented an argument for the members of Congress getting insurance provided by our taxes. Are they working "hard" to earn those benefits?? I hear "me" in your description of your view of people. I'm sure you take good care of your family and probably teach them to be good citizens along with that I would hope you teach them that there are people who are less fortunate than they are. Wait persons where we live average $2.10 an hour plus tips, unfortunately we live in an area predominately Republican who won't give 10%, I always give 20% or more. I must be a pushover or maybe I know how hard it is to live on less. Affluent folks have never been generous, they're to concerned with how much more they can keep than their wealthy neighbors. I wasn't born with a silver boot in my month like Bush. I know what it's like to work and what it's like to have less. I have picked cotton in Georgia, cut grass, weeded flowers for wealthy people, and started working 30 to 40 hours a week for 50 cents an hour as a 13 year old. I worked my way through high school. I was lucky to work for a good company and earn a respectful living, I am by no means wealthy, but neither am I in a bread line. I am raising a grandson and helping my daughter. And I would never ask someone like you for help, you probably have a keep off the lawn sign and no welcome mat.

Go back to school.....econ 101 or poli sci 101.. when they frist debated income tax.. the progressive tax everyone is talking about.. they used this same tired blame game.. but hey I have four houses in three countries and five cars a boat and a motorhome so it works for me.. but I am still voting for Obama because we are not here for the money but ...............each other...........how we treat the least // but hey we all said ignorance was costly +++ an as Pal in would say... prasie the lord, and Bush would second..lets go shoppin >< they surely believe there is a stairway to there heaven.

txmom, any waitress/waiter  I have ever spoken to relies on tips for most of their income. People do the jobs they can find. They are not all High School drop outs or slackers. Many people need local jobs which can be worked around their family needs. By the way, we need wait staff as well, so please don't despise them. But they need respect and decent wages, like every other working person in USA. This country doesn't just need lawyers and doctors. If working people, trades people, electricians, carpenters, skilled workmen and women got a little more respect in this country, people wouldn't break the banks to put recalcitrant youths through college when they would be better off learning an honest trade.

Your other point about day care and scondary education - it should be free for all. Higher education should be affordable as well, with higher standards to weed out those who are looking for an easy ride. education in this country is dismal. Anything Obama does to it will be an improvement. 

Ann...Please explain further your train of thought.

"Daycare and secondary education-it should be free for all." Why? Why should we assume the cost of daycare for children?  Why should we not support the needs of our children when we are not with them? How is that that not a responsibility of a parent?

"Higher education should be affordable as well, with higher standards to weed out those who are looking for an easy ride."  Please explain this further because it sounds like you are advocating spending money to prove that some will fail out of laziness.

I waitressed in college...I also reported my tips accurately.  At one point I cleaned the daycare facility for a church and did phone sales work.  It was honest work.  So I understand what you are saying about people doing the jobs they can find.  I also did not intend to live long term on those jobs but they were a means to an end.  I by no means took the jobs expecting a subsidy.

Do you realize that those working people: trades people, electricians, carpenters, skilled workmen and women, who actually do work to a high standard of end product do actually gain respect.  It is those who scream that they don't get recognized that are the ones who are suspect in their abilities.

I have to disagree with you on your pessimistic assessment of education in this country.  There are actually a few very good districts as well as some very bad.  It would make sense to see how bad districts could model after good ones and improve.  The status quo in many (bad) districts seem to focus on the business of attracting as much funding from multiple sources as possible and then not spending it on the intended purpose.  But that is just my observation from living and having children educated in different systems.

The United States spends more per capita on education than any other nation in the world.  And where are we ranked?  Look it up.  It will be a depressing suprise.  We spend too much time implementing programs and not enough on actually teaching.

The issue with our education system may lie with the idea of standardized tests for students as opposed to general tests of useful knowledge. By doing that the teachers are forced to teach a test instead of actual knowledge that could enlighten them to learn more, our culture as a whole isnt conducive to learning either, a lot of people who would rather take time to learn as opposed to partying or any other extra curricular activities dont always get referred to on favorable terms.

cds...I'm with you on standardized testing.  It dosn't allow for creativitiy in problem solving or expanding on ideas.  It is fine if you want a cookie cutter society.  Our system also does not account for differences in learning styles.  It is also not flexiable in detecting children with learning difficulties at an early enough age to successfully teach basic skills.  Some areas of the country are getting better about that but in many schools social issues rule the day and dealing with education becomes secondary.  This lack of attention to detail is a serious issue by the time kids reach middle or high school and if a child does not feel successful or understand their issue they tend to drop out.

DeWaterpoort...have you a clue about Foreign Earned Income?  How is an $85,000 dollar a year exclusion, tantamount to not paying a dime into the system.  While living in Britain making the same salary there as in the US, which took a hit, and rightfully so, to the UK Government, after all we were using some of the services the Government provided.  Then you factor in taxable benefits, the cost of tuition and housing alone threw us over the exclusion.  Add up the rest of the benefits and we actually had very little to live on while working in a foreign assignment.  I can promise you the US Government suffers nothing for US citizens working aborad and they offer very little benefit for them as well.

FYI...Halliburton's Home office is still in Houston.  The President of the Company lives in the UAE.

Excuse me? Have you?

How can you put an indivual situation onto a much greater principle? Looking at it from a small individual perspective is wrong.

Fact is that many jobs left this country since 2000 and were outsourced elsewhere. Fact is that many American Originated multinational companies have tax shelters abroad. Fact is that specifically Halliburton took many parts of their company out of this country. For a large part in order to avoid legal scrutiny AND to advance their bottom line. That they went for the United Arab Emirates should raise an eyebrow or 2 of the blind neo con followers.

yea, yea, yea...Hillary already tried to call for a hearing on that but looked ridiculous not only because it is not America's"National Oil Company" more over because in some way she seemed to want to prevent an American Citizen from moving out of the country because of his job title.

I put the individual situation on the greater principle because it is the bulk and balance of the individual expat working abroad that has any reasonable creedence on our tax liabilities.

Fact is many American originated multinational companies have business to conduct outside of our borders.  They higher local workers in nations they operate in because it is the law of the country they do business in, Local immigration law.  Not so different from our American Immigration laws, in fact many are patterened after our American Immigration laws.

If American workers would not get so greedy about what was owed to them for minimal skilled jobs then they would not have gone over seas.  If Americans were more particular about quality rather than quantity of goods they purchased there would be no need for jobs to go over seas.  Look around your neighbors are no different than mine...they want a lot of stuff and they want it cheep.  Market drives the decisions. Add excessive taxes on top of the need to produce at a minimal cost and it becomes a purely economic decision to search out cheep labor.

Why would going to the UAE raise eyebrows anymore than Saudi or Kuait or Indonesia?  Proximity to the purchsing decision for the industry.

Again: you are talking about individuals and I'm talking about companies: 2 totally different things. Fact is that bush gives tax benefits to COMPANIES who do the outsourcing. You yourself confirm my points in the first 2 sentences in your 4th paragraph.

I agree that market drives decisions. But there is an important function in there for the government to protect the national gross product. The stripping of it by the gop in 2000-2006 is the main cause of it.

The largest point of this all is this: it that should be clear to everybody that capitalism is the best system, but only with oversight. 

Obama gives us that and McCain wants to deregulate more. McCain's deregulation ultimately will kill the USA economically and will put this country into total isolation.

DeWaterspoot

   OH, you say McCain wants to deregulate more. So that's what he was doing when he co-sponsored a bill to regulate Freddie and Fannie more. The same bill that was killed in committee by Dodd and Frank and never brought to a vote. And here I thought he wanted to regulate them more. Thanks for setting me straight on that.

Again, besides it being totally wrong because of its lame duck status of the senate (49/49/2) and the one doesn't function without the other, who controlled everything from 2000 to 2006?

DeWaterpoort - I keep hearing that argument. Please give me facts about the bills the republicans have blocked in congress. Nobody has ever come up with a list of things that would have passed if the democrats had a larger majority. Put up or shut up. Your argument is nothing. The democrats did pass a higher minimum wage. It was said that a higher wage may lead to job losses.
Not only that, the democrats were calling Bush a lame duck. So if he has been a lame duck, that must mean that the democrats are responsible for what has happened in the last two years.

Well, consider this: who needs to sign off on a new law?

And yes, totally ignore my larger point: Halliburton, Bechteld, Blackwater and the sorts: how much taxes are they paying into the system?

JH, Here are just a few...

1. January 17, : a bill to provide greater transparency in the legislative process.
2. January 24, : a bill to amend the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 to provide for an increase in the Federal minimum wage.
3. April 17, : an original bill to authorize appropriations for fiscal year 2007 for the intelligence and intelligence-related activities of the United States Government, the Intelligence Community Management Account, and the Central Intelligence Agency Retirement and Disability System, and for other purposes.
4. April 18, : a bill to amend part D of title XVIII of the Social Security Act to provide for fair prescription drug prices for Medicare beneficiaries.
5. June 11, : a joint resolution expressing the sense of the Senate that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales no longer holds the confidence of the Senate and of the American people.
6. June 21, : To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide for energy advancement and investment, and for other purposes.
7. June 26, : A bill to amend the National Labor Relations Act to establish an efficient system to enable employees to form, join, or assist labor organizations, to provide for mandatory injunctions for unfair labor practices during organizing efforts, and for other purposes.
8. July 11, : to specify minimum periods between deployment of units and members of the Armed Forces for Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom.

See you idiot, you can't name a thing!! Your larger argument is false too. If their employees are Americans they pay taxes acording to our laws. If they have offices in the US they pay US taxes.

The way the democrats have been demonizing those corporations do you blame them for getting the heck out of here? Wait until Obama starts spreading the wealth and the exodus will continue.

So JH you don't blame corporations for taking tax breaks to relocate to tax shelters overseas but when working class folks support tax relief it's "socialism?" 

Chris - I will look into those. Thanks for being the first person to actually come up with something. I've got to catch up on some other stuff right now but look back because I will respond later.

Just for starters - i think they got #2 and I think #5 was just partisan politics and #7 had something about voting not being private when it came to union organizing votes.

There are major differences between democrat and republican policies.

JH, you're the one looking like an idiot. Chris answered your question with 8 items. there were others, including the bill to extend health care benefits to poor children, which was vetoed by Bush.

BULLCRAP Larry - That child health care bill was a joke. Bush said he would OK a small increase. He also wanted all the children who were eligible already to be signed up. It was not even being used for all that it was intended.  The democrats wanted a major increase in funding. They also wanted to include "children" up to the age of 25! How many children do you have that are 25 years old?
The increase were vetoed. That was a good thing. Larry, just because the democrats want something doesn't mean it the right thing. The way they use "children" to push their agenda is disgusting.
I will get back to Chris.

JH: you're missing the larger point and keep arguing things that happened the last 2 years and totally ignoring the 6 years before that where an imperial extreme right wing, neo con agenda was executed.

You're refusing to look at this thing from all perspectives. Fact is that if extremist Rove wouldn't have been able to push the neo con agenda through and took advantage of a president with an iq of a turnip and a powerhungry Veep, this extreme swing away from this would't be this big.

And so it SHOULD be.

I would be surprised when everything is said and done, that McCain has more than 100 elctoral votes. I have him winning only 10 states: Alaska, Utah, Idaho, Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, South Dakota, Wyoming, Alabama and Mississippi. And all things considered: those are 10 states too many. These states must be populated by only 4 groups: 1. The Ideologues. 2. The Ignorant. 3. The Lunatics. And 4. The Racists.

**Disclosure** I'm not a democrat.

JH,

the democrats' bill would have extended health care benefits to 4.5 million children. by vetoing the bill, Bush assures that when these children become sick, they will crowd the emergency rooms and their care will cost much, much more, at taxpayers' expense. It is not the fault of a child if his/her parents are poor. all children deserve a basic level of health care. it benefits everyone. even nasty, right wing idealogues.

Republicans, Republicans, Republicans...  The day you take responsibility for anything negative during your watch, we will all witness snow in Aruba.  You might have had a chance to be ahead in the polls if your weren't so cynical and divisive.  If you listen to either McCain or Palin during their stump speech, you really wonder how these people will be able to work with the Democrats if they were to win.  Democrats will extend their lead to a filabuster proof lead, so how are they going to reform Washington by continuing their lies and associations. 

The good thing about this campaign is that America is finally seeing the true spirit of the GOP.  They don't believe in government so how can they effectively govern the country.  The blame continues within their own campaign as we get closer to the election.  This is a change election and economic pain will trump ideology.

JH, that program for "children" already technically exists, my mother's state provide health care for being a prison guard extends to children who are under age 25, so until i told her to take me off due to my companies health care plan i was covered by her policy, and i was 22.

txmom, Obama has never called anyone on the otherside "un-American, terrorist sympathizer, unpatriotic or said that they would rather win an election than win the war."  That kind of language is very divisive.  But just keep waiting for that great Republican "trickle down."  And while you are waiting...a rising tide just may come along and lift your boat regardless...

Obama's call for national unity is a sharp contrast to Palin's divisive "real America" rhetoric, which implies that people who are not McCain supporters are not Real Americans, and the insulting language that accuses Obama supporters of being a bunch of lazy socialists waiting for a government handout. This election will be watershed for the Republicans in the way that Reagan's was for democrats. After years of turmoil, the democratic party's center reformed to the right of where it had been during the Great Society years. Bill Clinton epitomized that movement, and had a very successful presidency. The current GOP is heavily polarized to the right. It will need to re-form toward the center in order to become viable again. I suggest the GOP hurry up on this. Abandon the right-wing, give up on the fear and smear tactics. Relize the democrats are not a bunch of liberals, as the GOP defines them. We need the balance afforded by a 2 party system.

Choosing to be seduced or raped by rhetoric is a circular argument.  It has nothing to do with substance.

Generally speaking if you do not want to vote for Obama you are called a racist. I think that says it all.

Chad...now that came from left field in this particular conversation.  Quite honestly I am neither a racist nor an Obama supporter.

chad,

that's a stupid statement...most of McCain's supporters are not racists. they've just swallowed a line of BS.

I agree with chad

I watched a you tube video of McCains Denver campaign rally 10/26/2008 and I never see more Racist and Bigots and ignorant people going to one event in my life.

txmom.  You can continue to believe in the myths and the repeated slim that the GOP has said about Obama.  Why, because the same GOP that has pilidged this country is seeing the middle income backlash.   I keep hearing about John McCain's experience and knowledge.  I have heard vets who were prisoners with him that said in articles that they would be scared to see him have access to the "red button". 

I saw a supposedly experienced guy behave like a kid by thinking about cancelling the Republican convention, threatening now to show up to the debates, professing that the fundamentals of the economy are strong, saying that we shouldn't bail out homeowners from foreclosure and threatening to suspend his campaign.  He is a ticking time bomb and Palin believes that her mission to control the world is directly from God.  How anyone could vote for him is beyond me?  Now everyone understands why Obama did not take public financing.  The GOP attacks have been relentless.  If Obama did not have funding to combat this rhetoric, where would we be today?  The smartest decision of his campaign. 

MO you hit the nail on th head I never have heard anything and I mean anything of substance come out of the MCDUMB and DUMBER ticket. They never say anything worth a lick. Today all she could say that she wears a 35 dollar wedding ring. They just keep saying tax and spend tax and spend. Well you know Why don't they come up with a plan and well it is too late to because they are behind in the polls and have to resort to Rove tactics. You know that Rove has his Pecker in this mess. And now he is going to be on the loosing side of things. OBAMA/BIDEN 09

Mo Henry...My perceptions and concerns regarding Senator Obama are determined because of remarks he has made, his voting record, his resume and his promises.  I do not agree with his political theory.  I am not a neoconservative, I am a conservative.  I choose to vote for a candidate that will not intrude in my personal life or predispose themselves to stick their hand in my wallet and go for my cash.

There are aspects where I do feel betrayed by GWB.  Staying in Iraq for so long. (It is not necessarily possible or prudent to try to export Democracy to all cultures or civilization) If we needed an ME strong hold to solidify Afghanistan we should have gone for Iran (that is a population that would have embraced self determination).  His urgency, at the time, to offer amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants (fortunately this effort failed in spite of his pandering across party lines to accomplish this social goal) and his bailout of Market, Banks. (This was an intrusion I did not see coming from within my own party but whole heatedly expected it from the DNC).

My thoughts on McCain: Honestly, he was not my first pick for the ticket but he is what we have.  (I liked Congressman Ron Paul, unfortunately the party was not going to let that happen.)

I think John McCain is an honest man.  I think he will make decisions for this country based on conservative values balanced with common sense. I think he will prioritize as needs arise not per a preexisting agenda.

I think he will deal openly and honestly with foreign governments and work to get our free trade obligations balanced so we are not consistently on the down part of the teeter totter that dosn't move. 

I think he will commit America to honest, realistic and reasonable goals for energy and environmental concerns. 

I don't think he will break American laws, trust or relinquish American rights in dealing with the World Court, Nato or the myriad of other foreign governmental entities.

I believe that he will endeavor to work toward paying down our tremendous debt without raising taxes.  It will come at a cost of cutting unecessary federal spending where state or local spending will suffice to impliment special interest or local interest projects. It may come at a cost of cutting or combining efforts for a duplication of social service programs.  It may be that he will request that Congress pass fewer laws with stronger substance. Less feel good legislation and more meaningful law.

I think he will deal with our education inequities and correct inherant flaws in Federal Funding and leave alone those parts that belong to State and Local administration.

I feel he is uniquly qualified to deal with the issues of the VA. As we are at war our Military men and women are in need of specific services medically, mentally and emotionally that are currently being underserved. Our returning soldiers need assistance to reintegrate into American life and work, I can only imagine what lingers in their minds.  Personally, I would like to see some sort of inetiative offered to companies and businesses to hire returning veterans. I don't know if he would go there but I know Obama would not.

I could go on but this would be an even longer post.  Please note I did not take this from any posted script or from any overtly right propoganda.  It is how I feel and what I think  would best serve the citizens of our country.

Thank  you for  soem  accuracy...I fail to understand   how unity   gets  described  as  socialism in the above  commnets.   You are absolutely right --ACTUAL  "Country FIrst"  would  be  nice  if McCAin  gave it  a try.   I also fail  to understand  why  McCain's  arrogance (e.g. this is now etc)  is not  clear to some  of  his  more  radical  supporters (supra)....I think  some of these  comments  confuse  socialism  and fascisim  and then  try to pin both  on  Obama...

Yes Obama is inclusive. He is going to include more of my hard earned money in the welfare checks to all the nipple-suckers.

Scarab, you keep referring to nipple-suckers.  Are you including homless veterans in that description?

LU 404506

   Give us a break please. McCain and the Republicans are trying to. Republicans are thinking about country first. You Socialist Demobrats are only thinking about that $1,000 dollars that Nobama has promised them each year. Nobama is a only a politician trying to buy votes and there are more middle class votes than others. Wise up and think , you say you have brains, why not use them and see Nobamas true purpose.

Nobama's true purpose is to make the American people more reliant on the government for there lives. He is trying to create a Socialist state and with Himself, Poloose, Reed, Frank, Dodd and with a majority in the house and senate he will do it.

Kind of sounds as through we will all be getting our numbers tattooed on our foreheads.

Republicans MOTTO. COUNTRY FIRST.

SOCIALIST DEMOBRATS MOTTO: ME FIRST, GIVE ME MONEY AND I DON'T CARE WHOSE

Here is a little story about Nobama.

'Walking Eagle' Senator Borak Nobama was invited to address a major gathering of the American Indian Nation a couple of weeks ago in upstate New York.

He spoke for almost an hour on HIS future plans increasing every Native American's present standard of living, should he become President. HE referred to his career as a Senator, how HE had signed 'YES' for every Idian issue that came to his desk for a vote. Although the Senator was VAGUE on the DETAILS of his plan.

At the conclusion of his speech, the Tribes presented the Senator with a plaque inscribed with his new Indian name-Walking Eagle. Nobama then departed in hios motorcade, waving to the crowds.

A news reporter later inquired to the group of chiefs of how they came to select the new name for the Senator. They explained that Walking Eagle is the name given to a bird so full of @!$%# it can no longer fly. 

I guess the Native Americans got his new name right on mark.

On a more serious note. It is said that when a people learn that they can loot the tresurery for their purpose , they will vote more often for the politician that offers the most to help them achieve that purpose. The next step is a dictatorship.

Yes I am.

You Socialist Demobrats are only thinking about that $1,000 dollars that Nobama has promised them

Again... more name calling and rhetoric....  I own a BUSINESS... and I guess Mr. McCain is for the people you speak of....  at least until he decided to run for president again....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8EyGpOU3qM

{{ On a more serious note. It is said that when a people learn that they can loot the tresurery for their purpose , they will vote more often for the politician that offers the most to help them achieve that purpose. }}

You must be a banker, LOL!

The pigeons are coming home to roost for McCain.  He was the one that made it very clear that when people have no substantive points to make, they resort to name calling.  He's the one that said it, and now he's the one that's doing it, and proving it is true. 

Exactly!!

jake,

more infantile name-calling from the GOP. that's why you guys are losing. No ideas.

Larry

  Facts are facts, if you can't handle the facts why are you always saying show me the facts. IT WAS the Democrats that brought our glorious country to the brink of financial collapse. I'm sure you are not stupid enough to believe otherwise when the facts are put to you. It was Dodd and Frank that stopped McCain from getting more regulations at Freddie and Fannie. Dodd because he was getting campaign funds from them and also got sweetheart mortgages from Countrywide to keep regulations nil, Nobama also got his share. Frank was helping Freddie because he had a gay lover who was in management there. So those are the facts of our financial ruin and you want to keep them in there along with Nobama, Poloose and Reed. God save our country. I ask this in Christ name, AMEN.

Mary Exactly!  That's because I doubt they will be paying any more than they do today.  I know I don't believe it for one minute.  Hollywood isn't going to give up their money except for a tax deduction or a photo op. 

notice that the 700 billion bailout even had tax breaks in it for Hollywood....   Now how is it that the rich, get a tax break from the Democrats...  if they didn't get the tax breaks, they'd run from the dems policy in a heartbeat.

Clayton,

Before quitting your job to join those who don't work in order to get handouts from the government, I suggest you talk to someone who is capable of working, dosen't work, and gets a handout from the government....Aside from people abusing worker's compensation and similar programs, you won't be able to find anyone to talk to. This idea that there is some vast population that doesn't work and gets handouts from the government is a fantasy cooked up by talk radio hosts. It dosen't exist. It's like Reagan's idea of "welfare cadillacs"...hordes of people on welfare driving around in Cadillacs. Powerful rhetoric, but devoid of any connection to reality. Dream on.

"NEWS FLASH AMERICA!  The ecomony has and always will correct itself no matter who is in office."

what about the Great Depression?  it took FDR and the highly sociaist influenced New Deal to pull the United States out of that economic plummet.  where was your free market then?

Thank  you Larry...but  I  think  this  falls  on deaf  ears...I think  this  myth  perpetuated  by  talk show  hosts and  as  you pointed  out  -RR---has  an underlying theme...racism....I wonder  how  facts  could work against these histrionics  of the  right?  The facts/numbers etc...are  disregarded as  just  manipulation by the  liberal media...(how  much  of the media  does  Murdoch own?)

Murdoch owns a lion's share.  Look at all the political news/analysis mediums and you will see an overwhelming presence of right-wing neo-conservative influence.  it is interesting how the media all of a sudden becomes liberal simly because the Republican party has failed over the past eight years and people are sick of it.  the fact that Obama is mopping the floor with McCain couldn't be as simple as having better ideas or being completely different than what we've seen in the white house the past eight year, no.  it's a left-wing socialist conspiracy who's influence can only lead to outright socialist revolution.

so many people on the republican side are simply pissed that the time of their parties domination of the 2 elected branches of government are over and their rpresentatives were only able to accomplish two things; jack and sh!t

bib,

the failures of the welfare system of the 70s and 80s were widely recognized (even though the "welfare cadillac" was a myth). Welfare was reformed by Clinton and the Gingrich/Dole congress to adress many of the abuses, the centerpiece being "welfare to work".  Welfare reform hasn't been a topic in the current campaign, which is a shame. But McCain's supporters are trying to smear Obama's tax proposals with welfare.  Obama's tax proposals are not welfare. Obama would increase the earned income tax credit for low income wage earners with dependent children. However, this credit does not go to people who don't work. It is not welfare.

This is why McCain is losing. His campaign is just plain dishonest.

bib,

I don't think that most people consider the earned income tax credit to be the same thing as welfare...the maximum EIC is about $400/month. Welfare programs such as  aid to people with disabilities give a lot more than that.

Are you against gov't aid to people with epilepsy or cerebral palsy, or downs syndrome??

yeah Larry.  i believe the last president to help balance the budget was clinton, a democrat!

Right On Icepick151 !

Reagan = 200 Billion (-)

Bush I  =  300 Billion (-)

Clinton = 300 Billion (+)

Bush II = 10 Trillion (-)

Need we say more!

IRONWORK

  YES we do need to say more. Your post is misleading and inaccurate.

You have Reagon, Bush1 and slick Willie in the budget group but have Bush2 in the national debt group. The National debt has always been in the trillions under each of the Presidents you mentioned. Post the truth if you want to post here. We are tired of Demobrats Nobamaheads lies and untruths.

LMAOOOO Hope?????  About as much hope for the middle class as a depression.  What jobs???????  Oh that's right construction jobs.  Take a look at Long Island.  We  build strip malls like crazy.  Nobody in them but jobs look good on paper.  When will people see it for what it is?  A scam to get folks to vote for him.

Travfaulk

    Just more Demobrat lies. It was the Demobrats that brought our glorious country to the  brink of financial collapse in the first place. Dodd and Frank saying that Freddie and Fannie were strong and if there is nothing wrong with it don't fix it when McCain tied to get a bill through that would regulate them. His bill died in Dodds and Franks committees and was never brought for a vote. Dodd was the second most recipient of Freddies and fannies money in congress and Nobamawas the third. Dodd also took sweetheart mortgages from Countrywide to keep sub prime loans going. Frank also had a gay lover working for Freddie. So who is the crooks here, certainly not McCain.

Clayton; although i don't deny your experiences with your employees i do take issue with you telling Larry to "get the facts."  My reasoning is based on the fact that your "facts" are purely anecdotal and have little relevance outside of your individual reality.  So i encourage you to get the facts by looking at statistics covering a broader population that simply those lazy workers that you employ.

Clayton,

please provide some evidence for your claims....how many adults who are able to work receive welfare. I'm particularly interested in the number of men who are able to work and choose not to, in order to receive welfare. Give me some facts from a reputable and reliable source. I think that the amount of money that goes to able-bodied adults who choose welfare over work is really quite small. If you can provide evidence to the contrary, please do so.

bib,

be serious...the image that McCain's supporters conjure up of people who don't work because they'd rather get a handout does not include people on social security.. you and Clayton may have some anecdotal evidence that there are some people who don't work because they can get a government handout...The issue I'm after is how many of these people are there? How much taxpayers' money is being "handed out" to people (ie, able-bodied, not retired, over age 18) who don't work. I'm asking anyone to supply evidence from a reliable source (such as US Gov't or non-partisan research) to support the contention that a significant amount of tax money is handed out to people who don't work. Put up or shut up.

I grew up in the late 70's and 80's. I saw what welfare does. I saw the reality. I don't need anyone to lie and say different because I was there.

I have seen this when I worked at a warehouse in the late 80's. It frustrates me that people argue against what I have seen with my own eyes.

All of the examples you speak of were prior to the Welfare Reform passed in 1996:

The welfare "reform" of the Clinton era consists of two major elements: a revolutionary change in the basic goals set by the federal government; and a dramatic "devolution" of responsibility – turning what used to be a federal, centralized system over to the states.

Reflecting the new federal mission, welfare rules now:

• Require most recipients to work within two years of receiving assistance,
• Limit most assistance to five years total, and
• Let states establish "family caps" to deny additional benefits to mothers for children born while the mothers are already on public assistance.

I wish the government would use taxes to build our military and roads and leave everything else alone.

So no more public schools or libraries, no more Social Security, no more publicly funded police & fire protection.  No more FDA to assure the safety of drugs, no more USDA to assure the safety of food, no more FDIC to protect savings, no more SEC to protect investors from scammers, no more FBI or CIA, no EPA to protect our water & air, no more Medicare/Medicaid.. let them die if they can't pay.

But your plan is to build roads and bombs, period.  Hmmm?  I don't like your plan.

bib,

some back and forth between congress and the president is common for something as important as welfare reform...the bottom line is that Clinton and the republican congress were able to come to an agreement. that's the way our government is supposed to work....It's really too bad the GOP has taken the path of caustic rhetoric, lies and distortions, and name calling this election. These tactics are going to hand them a defeat of epic proportions. Hopefully the GOP will come back to center and get some positive ideas and a vision for the future by the next election cycle. Their mantras of small government, free market, and lower taxes at any cost are tiresome. They are part of political history. The GOP needs to leave these slogans behind and come up with a philosophy of government that applies to the 21st century. Having two viable parties is vital.

 I get sick of people giving Clinton the credit for welfare reform.

But reform WAS enacted.  Now, any interest in addressing my other points?

Ken Pac

   Yes reform was enacted but now Nobama is going to tear Clintons work all down and I guess you know where all the welfare money is going don't you ,since Nobama's radio interview in 2001 was about redistributing the wealth and the civil rights movement.

YAY, Smlfry, and GO BLUE COLORADO!!!

We're with you! Virginia finally going Obama BLUE, too!

Woo-hooooooo, let's go BLUE!

Obama/Biden '08

SMIFRY

   Since you are so smart maybe you can tell me why Biden wouldn't answer a reporters question on Sunday about Nobama being a Maxist. Since Biden dose slip up and tell the truth sometimes about Nobama. Did he fear that he would tell the truth again if he answered the question.

Just Asking.

You see, Iam, that's what's so pathetic about the Republican party, McCain-Palin, and supporters of McCain-Palin. You keep hurling sewage at Obama - you don't care at all if there's any truth to it. Whatever works! Arab Muslim, unpatriotic baby killer, anti-Christ, socialist, communist, Marxist, terrorist, boogeyman -

Millions and millions of people are waking up to the ridiculousness of McCain's charges, the complete lack of integrity of the McCain campaign, the lies, the smears, the spin, and the desperation of your party. You've won over the country with lies, fear and anger before. But not this time.

Sunny T

   These are not McCain charges, these are my charges which I am entitled to as a free tax paying citizen. So don't blame McCain for my charges. I don't need McCain to think for me as I can think for myself. Now If only you Nobamaheads could do the same, we can keep America free. I know you can't though, so you will just have to wait to see the horror you are creating for our country, and you will.

These charges are coming from the right wing, and many of them are voiced by McCain and Palin at their rallies.

If you can think for yourself and you want more lies, war, and economic disaster, you are free to voice your beliefs and vote your conscience.

Maybe you enjoy watching America slide into a third-world economic and educational status.

Maybe you think lies and bluster will win us powerful allies in the world or will bring peace.

Maybe you, like so many of the Bush-Cheney-McCain-Rove people, love exploiting and spreading fear and anger.

It's useful for manipulating masses of people and brings them to the polls.

Look at your own words! {{ you will just have to wait to see the HORROR you are creating for our country, and you will. }}

Fearful, Dem? Is that why you try to spread fear on Newsvine?

Sunny T

    No, just telling the truth, which Demobrats can't seem to do.

your comment is absurd and only points out your ignorance.  i can see why you're casting your vote for McCain/Palin.  no offense but it is simply sad when someone (such as yourself) puts up silly statements that hold no water.  your blanket statements are nothing more than empty rhetoric.

Guess what, txbratman1 ...

I'M STILL NOT SCARED OF BARACK OBAMA!

But you folks who are scared better get a good supply of Depends for Election Night.

Sunny T

   NO, what we better do is send our money off shore where the nipple- suckers can't get their hands on it.

Better send it fast, Iam! Obama is going to close those loopholes real quick!

World won't end Old Vet just the declining middle class.  With more and more democratic control, there is less and less of a middle class.  Long Island is an example as I'm sure there are many others.  Would I hate to see my Country go downhill even more?  I most certainly would.  Idol Obama is not the answer.  All he can say is "McCain is Bush", "Do you want 8 more years?"  Only key thing he has said he how he wants to redistribute the wealth and we know what that means.  Thanks but no thanks.  I already gave.

The decline of the middle class began with Reagan, and was hurried along by Bush 1.  During the Clinton years, average income went up, disposable income went up.  Under Bush 2 the middle class lost those gains and is moving into endangered species area!
Contrary to what most Repbulicans say, tax increases have always resulted in higher employment.  But Obama doesn't want to raise taxes, he simply wants to restore them to the level they were under the Republican God - Regan.  If it was good for repubs then, why not now?  Simply stated, because this time it's coming from a Democrate.
Such hypocracy does not pass unnoticed.

Excuse me but here on Long Island government happens to be democrat and has been for years.  Clinton didn't increase income, technological boom did.  With each tax increase, the middle class has shrunk.  Why is it so hard to admit? 

Because it's not true!  The technology boom contributed to the rapid growth.  Who was the biggest consumer of new technology during the Clinton years?  Under President Clinton the DOD upgraded technology and computer aided weapons at a faster rate than any president prior.  All those smart bombs used in Iraq were developed and purchased under the Clinton Defense Department.  As technology trived, so did mainstreet.  The middle class grew as the percentage of Americans living below the poverty level shrank.  That number has risen continiousely for the past 4 years.

It's a play on words.  If technology didn't boom, and jobs get created, Clinton wouldn't have had anything to purchase.  That is true.  He didn't "create" the technology that caused the job boom.  If you are saying the middle class is shrinking it is and it started shrinking a long time ago.

Investment and develoment go hand in had.  If the Clinton DOD had not invested, would the boom have been as fast and far reaching?  They are mutually dependent and one cannot be discounted in favor of the other.  NASA contributed, private industry contributed, education contributed, all contributed to the demand, the demand drove the development.  The largest client was and still is the federal and state goverments.  In MN, the state goverment demand for flex vehicle motorpools had driven the increased availability.  Technology development is one of those areas government should spend money.  It's good for the ecoomy, it  creates jobs.  When the federal Goverment spends billions a month in an uncessary war, there is less for other programs. 

LMAOOOOOOOOOOO You dems really crack me up.  You try to take credit for everything you feel is good and no responsibility for anything that is bad.  I suppose those big bad corporations had nothing to do with it either.  You know......the utilities, airlines, etc., that need technology to improve their businesses and customer satisfaction......that ones all of you love to hate.

Hello, Flash, where have you been this whole campaign?? Seriously, No, responsibility for anything bad? Are you kidding me? It seems to me that the Democratic ticket would confront the issues, or at least answer the questions when asked or challenged, and the GOP ticket would either be on the defensive or ignore the obvious, or clear themselves of any ethical issue.  Wow, I never cease to be amazed.

Old Vet

   What rock did you just crawl from under. Nobama wants to create a Socialist State and have Americans depending on the government for their lives. With Himself, Poloose, Reed, Dodd, Frank and a marjorty in the House and Senate he will do just that. IF you are an old vet, which I doubt, that is something you once fought against.

Get ready to get your number tattooed on your forehead.

I like what Old Vet wrote!

"The minute anyone calls Obama a 'socialist,' that person loses all credibility. Obama is no more a socialist than McCain is a fascist. What amuses me are "the world will end" arguments currently being made by McCain supporters. Reminds me of the arguments made by Hoover's supporters against FDR in 1932. Devoid of ideas, the McCain camp must rely of fear mongering. How sad."

Exactly, Old Vet. You got it exactly right. From the beginning McCain made the election about demonizing and discrediting Obama because McCain and the Republicans had nothing but more Bush and Rove to offer.

Obama up 14 points - your scare tactics are not working, Republicans!

To IamSocialistDem-Not--Thanks for proving my point with your inane rant.  Having failed on the intellectual and pragmatic levels, all you have left are childish insults.  As to whether I'm a veteran, my DD-214 states C/2/508--and if you don't know what that means, don't go into a VFW because vets on both left and right will stomp your butt.

Andrea where have you been doing the whole Obama walk on water campaign?  According to him all the problems are the republicans and George Bush.  I have NEVER heard any democrat say they had any responsibility in any of these problems......even Congress it's been the old "we are only in control 2 years."

Old Vet

   I don't think any Vet will stomp my butt. I do go to the VFW every friday night, no ones tried to yet, so your theats are just as hollow as your mine. Accually the only people I see there are in there 80's and can hardly walk. My DD 214 states I have 20 years service in the Army and Coast guard with two years of Combat service fighting the same type of people you want to elect. To bad your service was for nothing and a paycheck.

To IamSocialistDem-Not--Thanks for proving my point with your inane rant.  Having failed on the intellectual and pragmatic levels, all you have left are childish insults.  As to whether I'm a veteran, my DD-214 states C/2/508--and if you don't know what that means, don't go into a VFW because vets on both left and right will stomp your butt.

Old Vet Ill Help kick his A$$ along with you I'm a 2 job having retired vet. He is a nobody..

To Iam SocialistDem-Not

What?  You fought Democrats?  Now some of us were told we were fighting Communists, but there's a huge difference between a communist and a socialist.  During the Cold War, the western European socialists were often the communists' greatest foes and the old Bolsheviks certainly had little truck with socialists.  If this seems to be flying past you, don't worry; just mutter into your beer.  Art and I will join millions of vets (including Colin Powell--a real socialist for you!) in supporting Barack Obama.

Old Vet

   You say there is a big difference between Socialist and Communist. WHAT do you think USSR stands for. United Soviet Socialist Republics and certianly not United Soviet Communist Republics, that would be USCR or the Democratic Republic of North Vietnam or the Democratic Republic of China or just Democrats, however you say it, it all means the same" SOCIALIST" period. Also if you look up at the top of the post block, you will see a ABC, that is a spell check.

iceman,

wise words....are you trying to make the point that restoring the 39% tax rate on people with incomes over $250K amounts to "destroying the rich"? Ask Warren Buffet or Bill Gates how they feel about it.

the point that "you cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred" should be told to Palin, with her dividing us into real Americans (McCain supporters) and Anti-Americans (Obama supporters).

Larry

  Where do you and Nobama get it that someone making over $250,000 is rich. I suppose when you make $25,000 a year, they are rich to you. That is your fault not ours. I do suppose it depends on where you live though weither $250,000 is rich. If you live in L.A. New York City or on the east or west coast $250,000. Will just get a family by the same as your $25,000 in Kansas. Now the people you quoted are rich but taxes to them is a matter of 1-10th of 1 persent of their wealth and means nothing to them. They give more to charity each year than that. They didnot get rich by giving handouts to nipple- suckers though.

Debbie

   You are right about your taxes going up. Nobama has failed to mention that he will eleminate the Bush tax cuts, so everyones taxes are going up- up -up and away. That is all he can do to fund all his proposed spending. Then he will bring them down again before 2012 and the Demobrats will fall for it all over again.